„You automate before others automate you. Automation is not a science, it's not something you need scientific knowledge to do. Anyone can start automating if they want to. And you don't even need millions to do it."
Eduard Hlava is an automation and digital solutions sculptor, business analyst, information systems task creator, mentor to IT business owners, business process coach and Integromat specialist. And not just any. He's the best. Last year he won the Integromat Partner of the Year award in the Freelance category. He also has his own IT company, developing information systems, digital solutions, web and mobile applications. But now he spends most of his time freelancing. And when he's not freelancing and running automation solutions, he relaxes at the theatre, running or with his family.
He is rightfully Integromat's Partner of the Year. I use his brilliant automation myself. But I've never had much time to ask about the background. This time I took advantage of the situation and asked...
🔸 Do we all really want to automate?
🔸 What areas of the business can offer the fastest improvements?
🔸 How to mine documents from customers?
🔸 What are the advantages of automation platforms over bespoke solutions?
🔸 What are TyAutomaty.cz?
Eda has also prepared a very valuable bonus for us. An e-book on how best to automate and digitize. Check out the bonus.
Fingers crossed and I wish you success
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Martin Hurych
Hello. I'm Martin Hurych and this... This is Ignition.
Today's Ignition will be with Eda Hlava, owner of IT company Neternity, sculptor of business processes, sculptor of automation, but most importantly, and I think this is the most important, we have here the Partner of the Year in the Freelance category of Integromat
Hey, Edo.
Eduard Hlava
Hey, thanks for inviting me.
Martin Hurych
I wanted to ask... Am I a welcomer, a huncher, a Sapak or an unkissed?
Eduard Hlava
I think you, Martin, are definitely a welcomer.
Martin Hurych
Can you explain what these categories are and why you use them?
Eduard Hlava
That's how I divide companies and clients according to their approach to digitalization and automation. I recognize that these are not technical terms from marketing or business manuals, but they're made up by me, they're kind of poetic. And what do they mean?
I refer to a welcomer as a company, in fact most of my clients, that is already involved in automation in some way and has automated processes. They want to move in that direction. It knows what automation is going to do for it and it's working on it.
The second category of "hunchers" are, and it is offered from this name, companies that suspect that they could improve something. Maybe in the way they work. Maybe they haven't got there yet, but they've already got their invoices digitised, they've got some of their processes tweaked. They haven't really tackled automation yet, but they're on their way.
The Sappers group, it sounds a bit pejorative, are basically corporations. I don't want to include all corporate companies or large companies in this group. Rather, they are companies that have Enterprise solutions for their systems and are tackling automation at a different level. I don't want to go into that area completely yet, but at the same time, I don't want to say that the automation that I do is not appropriate for a corporate. Rather, in terms of process size, internal security policies, etc., it's not really appropriate.
And that last group of "unenlightened"... Well, there you go. These are companies that have no idea yet that they could digitalize or automate their processes, they are still running in many cases in the old-fashioned way, the processes are only in people's heads. And again, not to sound bad. This is where I think these companies have the greatest potential to move forward and improve.
Martin Hurych
So before we blast the curious and the uninitiated today, tell us briefly what was your journey to here, to automation, to Integromat's partner...
Eduard Hlava
Just a quick digression. I went to high school, automation engineering. Many, many years ago, a quarter of a century maybe. Back then it was impossible to get into computer engineering at the high school in Chomutov, which I was more interested in then. So I chose the closest field to computer science. That was automation technology. Back then, in the 1990s, automation looked mainly like connecting pistons, relays, etc. It wasn't about programming at all.
Then I basically moved into really IT. I started dealing with the internet, websites, the company I mentioned deals with creating information systems, websites, e-shops etc. And I, when I went freelance a few years ago, I basically went back to the main theme that I've always had. It was helping clients develop and produce information solutions, digital solutions, whether it was information systems in-house or online services for customers. That's what I still do as a consultant to this day. I help clients take that first rough idea and turn it into a meaningful specification for their solution. Basically, automation came back to me in a natural way. No longer in the form of those 90s pistons and the like, but in the form of software solutions and software platforms such as Integromat, which allows the integration of different systems and automation to be produced and prepared much faster than was possible even 5-10 years ago. In fact, it was a natural progression from and to what every company is dealing with... How to simplify their work, speed up the process, speed up the business, increase the number of orders. The way to do that is through some kind of information system, or connecting existing applications that that company already has, and automating the process that the company is using or has.
Martin Hurych
Really, every company?
Eduard Hlava
What do you mean, every company?
How about automations really
Martin Hurych
You said every company wants to get faster. I'm not exactly impressed with reality sometimes. If that were the case, there wouldn't actually be unkind and inquisitive people. What do you think the reality is?
Eduard Hlava
That's a good question. As I mentioned, it's mainly the greeters and the inquisitors who come to me as customers. I don't quite meet the unenamored ones at this point. I might have slipped out of your question in a different way. I think that sooner or later any company that wants to survive is going to have to go digital and automate in some way. Of course there are industries, there are companies where you don't need that. You're, I don't know, a small e-shop that sells baby booties. And the owner wants it to continue to be a small e-shop. There's not a lot of automation there. But if we look at it in more detail, without the owner even knowing it, they have some things automated anyway. For example ... You have an e-shop, you have it connected to a bank, and when a client pays you, it's marked in the e-shop that the order is paid. That's like the most basic example of automation.
Not to completely dodge the question. I think every company will need it sooner or later. Except for companies where automation will interfere in some way.
Martin Hurych
Now I completely understand what you say sometimes. That this republic needs rows of automation and automation robots instead of rows of canola.
Eduard Hlava
Yes, that's right. We can imagine rape, everybody sees it in summer or spring or I don't know when, when the yellow stuff grows in the fields here. But the space for machines, for robots, is much bigger than those canola fields in Bohemia. I see it, I see it every day. It is up to people like me to expand the possibilities or the number of automatons and robots in Bohemia. People who will show companies the way and show that you can do it this way, it's not complicated. It's basically about as easy today as tweaking the operating system on your Android phone, if I exaggerate a bit. I don't think companies need to resist that.
Martin Hurych
We'll get to that in a minute, that's why you're here. I'm living in two relatively different bubbles right now. The younger one automates what she can. Actually, she can't quite figure it out. Sometimes I think she automates to automate. The other one, she often has no idea that she can automate anything at all. There's a natural shyness about it. There are predators circling around these companies, where everybody's offering automation, digitization, acceleration, and so on.
Let's suggest to the uninitiated what the first areas of focus should be and when. For example, where do you see the most common and quickest steps forward?
Eduard Hlava
Just one more remark... I think, and it is often the case in other parts of life as well... it is better if the motivation for automation comes from inside the company, not from outside. I can't come to the company from the unenlightened group and say "now I'm going to change your life by doing some automation here". That's not how it works. Most of the time it meets resistance.
The natural path to automation is through the internal problems that exist in that company. Now, I don't mean problems like 2 people hating each other. We're not gonna solve this completely with automation yet. Although maybe we will. But it does lead from the fact that... I'll give you an example, it's probably for the best. You have a company where people email excel spreadsheets with orders so that each order is processed in one excel spreadsheet. Now ... If you've got 10 orders in a month, that's OK, that's fine, that's the way to manage it. The moment when you have dozens of those orders, when you're processing 50-100 quotes and orders a month and you're sending it with 3-5-10 other people in the company, everybody edits that excel file somehow and sends it back, it's chaos. And this can be the impulse where the process or business owner says "we don't have to do it this way, we could have a system for that". That's the point ... That's the "give me a fixed point and I'll move the earth" ... That's the fixed point that we can move the chaos in the company. We say OK, let's get started or let's change just a small part in the company. Let's change it so that we eliminate emails and excels. Then there can be two ways to solve it. The first is to implement or build some system that will take care of the whole processing and procurement from sales to production. Or, if the company is already using some CRM system, then the CRM system is extended with some part that can provide just that information cycle. The example I gave is awfully natural in terms of switching from "I don't have anything automated" to "I already have something automated". The company will come to that conclusion on their own and my only job is to cue them or whisper to them "hey it could be done this way, look, this is where it's burdening you, you're spending hours and hours of work on it, let's think about how to do it, differently. "
What areas are promised to automation?
Martin Hurych
So one area is contracts and CRM. What are the potential next areas where you see the most common and quickest steps forward? If I'm really unpolished, where should I focus my first attention and see if it's working or not working there? A lot of us have tunnel vision. You've been doing something for 15 years and often you feel like you've got it fine-tuned down to the smallest detail. You don't even think that something could be faster... Where are, say in smaller and medium sized companies, the typical neurological points where it's good to look outside the box again and see if it's really working well for me or not.
Eduard Hlava
Business process in general and working with the customer. Then the transfer of information. Going from the customers inside the company, passing information inside the company and then back to the customers. I'll give you an example again. Making offers. I've done that a few times. Imagine you have some opportunities and customers in your CRM. Each customer has slightly different requirements. And you create a proposal for each customer... And now the state before automation... You create each quote by making a copy of the previous document. You edit that, change the name, the price, the offer items, make it into a PDF and email it to the customer. Terrible job, lots of room for error. But you can solve it by having the offer generated directly by the CRM system you're using. Because the information you need to have in that system anyway - what you're offering the client, how much, what product, etc - is already there. Producing a PDF file from the offer in the CRM - which is automatically sent to the customer - is one of the cornerstones of business communication that can be well automated. Still in the same business process - you can automate the communication with the customer itself. Unless it's a downright face-to-face business where you meet with three customers in a month and that's enough. If there are really dozens and hundreds of those customers, it's pretty good to automate the process of communicating with the customer. For example, flow-ups. It means... I'm going to send him an offer and I'm not going to create a task in a week to "call the customer", check if he's read it, what's the reaction to the offer. I have an automated reminder that reminds me. Same thing, if the client doesn't respond to the offer, again, I can send another email. So the area of business communication to and from the customer is offered. My experience is that a lot of things are done unnecessarily by salespeople. They are activities that can be done by an automaton. Of course it must not be overdone. Maybe you're trying to throw me off now?
Martin Hurych
On the contrary. I will only add for myself and the shop that it has a very beneficial side effect. The fact that an automated machine simplifies some of my work as a salesperson means that I very likely have to enter data into that CRM that I would otherwise very likely leave in my head. As a by-product, a more consistent and information-packed CRM.
Eduard Hlava
Thanks for the reminder and here's the point. Now I don't know if it's a side effect of automation or the primary one - that you have to go against the machine. The automaton basically doesn't make mistakes. It can't misspell, it can't type the wrong number somewhere. It behaves the way it's made, the way it's programmed. Unlike a human. Man, when he's got a process in his head, it's his nature to tweak that process a little bit every day. For an automaton to work correctly and consistently, it needs to work with correct and consistent data. And that's one aspect of automation. It actually guides, I don't want to say forces, but rather it guides, people or should guide people who, for example, work with a CRM system to make sure that the data is both complete and in that system, and that the data is correct. Which is one thing. Just one more comment on that, that it leads to the machine working properly ... if it doesn't have the data, if it doesn't have, for example, the products or services that are supposed to be in the offer, it can't send a quote. Unlike a human. A human can basically send an offer without a product, that's fine. An automated machine won't do that. But at the same time, it can alert you that there's an error and tell you to fix it. The machine is such a partner... I don't know what to call it ... that leads a company to get people to trust the system where they have data, like salespeople. That they have the data there, that the CRM system becomes the one place of truth. Because they know it's there. Just like you said. That they have to put it in or it doesn't work, the offer doesn't get sent. And that actually naturally improves the data that the company processes and has on clients, contracts, etc.
How to automatically extract documents from customers?
Martin Hurych
So if your CRM is a mess, get automation in place and your salespeople will finally start filling your CRM. That's my interpretation. I apologize for that, of course. Disclaimer, that's my personal position, my personal comment on the matter. :)
What if you hear "Edo, that's fine, that's our data, but we can't automate it because we get data from outside in the form of different documents, PDFs, whatever"... What about it then?
Eduard Hlava
It depends on what the data is. If you are getting, for example, orders or some documents from the outside, easy to read, like a form filled in PDF and sent by email, or even a scanned form for ordering, for example, energy or ordering some products etc., there are quite a lot of solutions for extracting data here from these documents. Whether they are PDF documents or scanned images with the form. There are solutions that can mine the data. This is a phenomenon of the last five six seven years. Even in the Czech Republic, companies have sprung up that have smart data mining solutions. For me, quite understandably, most companies are in the business of extracting data from invoices. These are probably the most circulated and it is an area where digitisation has not yet taken place as widely as we would like to imagine. The idea is that an invoice is not sent as a scanned PDF or a generated PDF, but is sent as a data sentence that is understood by an automated machine. There we still have quite a long way to go, to get to the stage where images are not sent with the invoice. This is why there are a lot of invoice data mining systems.
At the same time, there is a plethora of documents like invoices, but not invoices - orders, etc. These too can be mined. And we don't have to stop there. The result of the extraction can also be automated. That is, how to react to what's in that order and tailor the next process to what needs to happen with that document. For example, if I have an order, I'm selling, say, 5 types of services, the automation can read the data from that document and based on what is selected or what the customer has selected, it can assign the order to a specific merchant. He then processes it. It completely removes the phase of someone transcribing the data into some system. Someone else transcribes it from that system into another system, etc. Now, I admit I don't know what you're asking.
Martin Hurych
What about it? How to incorporate this into automation? One more small question before the parenthesis. So I assume that the chmaropis can be extracted as well? If even I as a salesperson have some configuration form that I handwrite in during a meeting, but it has some clearly defined structure, can we mine such a document?
Eduard Hlava
Yes and no. We have to take into account that if it is a written script, especially in English, we have to admit that the results are never 100%. And they can't be. But if it's a printed font, the results are very good. I even have a case that runs essentially without human intervention, processing units of hundreds of documents a month, and there is, let's say, one error a month where someone has to physically look at the document and check it. In terms of extraction ... One such place where it's good to have a control mechanism or a control element, a human view of the extracted data. But that's what's being counted on. The way these solutions work is that documents come in from one side in some way - by email or otherwise. The machine extracts them. The human sees the extracted document and the data that has been retrieved from it. He visually checks them, which is orders of magnitude easier than retyping it sentence by sentence, letter by letter. Then, after they're checked, or tweaked and errors corrected, it just confirms that it extracted it correctly, and the rest of the process goes automatically again. So, you can put a human in that process, give it room to do some action like "check the data" and then let it go on.
Martin Hurych
If I understand it correctly, an order may come in, which we, say, scan to make it easier, print it out, have someone check it for us, and the machine moves it on to production as an order. This can actually all be done without human intervention, so there's only one eye between the customer and, say, someone who's putting the order into production, like physically. Can it be simplified like that?
Eduard Hlava
Yeah, in this case, yes. It depends on what's going on behind the extraction, what the process is. If we imagine that so far the extraction is creating an order in the CRM, creating maybe some activity for a salesperson, there might be an automated response to the customer, confirming that it's been processed, there might be passing the information on to the next level in the company, maybe manufacturing or whatever that might follow on from that. That's basically where classic automation can work in business communications. Of course, the data extraction part is just one piece that can save units to tens of hours per month. It's significant, but it's one cube out of, say, twenty. Quite significant in terms of time, but less significant in terms of what an automated machine or an entire automated process can actually do.
What are the advantages of Intergomat?
Martin Hurych
When I look at automation, I see around me in the market, and it's been mentioned here a little bit, companies that write automation and turnkey digitization. Small and large. You've opted for a platform. Before we get to the specific platform... Why a platform and what do you see as the advantage for yourself?
Eduard Hlava
Good question, why a platform. If I may digress, I was talking to a programmer recently about the platform, about Integromat. Really like a top programmer who's been programming for 20 years. When I was explaining to him how it works, why to use it and stuff, he gave me a very appraising look. That he'd never use it, that it was beneath him. He was partly right, I understand. And that brings me to why the platform. Because a platform allows you to create automation or connect two or more systems without programming. Without having to write a single line of code. Anyone doesn't have to be a programmer to build automation using a platform. All that is needed is probably some analytical thinking, maybe technical, not programming. I would like to separate that out. What's the advantage, which is what I like about platforms or Integromat in general, is that I model the process in my head how it should work. Then the platform solves a lot of things for me that the programmer has to solve by programming it over and over again. For example, the module to connect to the CRM is already solved. I'm just figuring out what to do with the data that comes in from the CRM - like order name, client name, email, phone, etc. I'm not dealing with how to program it, I'm just dealing with how to - probably the closest word is - model it. I connect the elements together and don't need to know and program like a traditional programmer.
Martin Hurych
Which is paradoxical, I mean, the over-looking look, because people are starting to swarm around me who are offering platforms for low-code, no-code programming. So obviously that's the way to go here. And personally, I think it's an inevitable trend with the shortage of programmers and the varying quality of programmers.
But back to you. It's obvious you like platforms, you became Integromat's Freelance Partner of the Year. Why Integromat?
Eduard Hlava
There is a very simple answer to this, strange as it may sound. There is no other similarly built product, or three years ago when I started, there was no similarly built product for integration and automation. If I can mention Integormat's competitors ... Zapier basically does similar things to Integromat. But Integromat, which was created in the Czech Republic, among other places, stands out because of the visual form of the integration or automation process. The moment it arises in my head, I see it in bubbles, in those Integormat modules. I basically had no choice. If I put it this way. The visual aspect of creating automations is very important, at least to me.
What are TyAutomaty.cz?
Martin Hurych
Confirmed, it's pretty colorful. I know my way around it, too. Then if you show it to me later, I'll know it too.
You sculpt processes and automation on a turnkey, customized basis. What I'm very interested in, and I'll try to push a new term here, you also offer automation - as - and - service. What's that? Where can we find it?
Eduard Hlava
I'll return to my poetic division of companies' approach to automation into haves and have-nots. Here the project or product or service under the brand TyAutomaty.cz is intended for companies from the groups of the haves and have-nots. I realized that most or a large part of automation has some common denominator. They do similar things. With different systems, but basically what's inside is almost always the same. And I've found that especially with the hunchers and the uninitiated, it's good to show marketers, business owners, CEOs, some simple examples of what automation can do for them. I started creating TyAutomaty.cz as a ready-to-use. As a ready-to-use complete, meaning that if, as we talked about creating quotes or creating PDFs from CRM, that's a typical example where I have a CRM and I want to generate documents, quotes, presentations, etc. from that. This is where the automation as a service is aimed at just saying to the client "you can have this automation here, you don't need to do it basically, you don't need to think about anything, you don't even need to think too much at the moment about how your processes work". Of course you always need to look at how the processes work in the customer's company. But deliberately TyAutomaty.cz as a service is focused on the most typical cases of automation in companies. An example is the generation of documents directly from the CRM. The approach is ... the client orders the automation service, not the automation. To make an analogy ... You can come in and say "I want to automate this process here so and so" and you're basically ordering the "production", the programming of the automaton. Or you can come to me and say "hey, I need to generate quotes here from my CRM, I have such and such CRM, here's what my quote looks like, do it for me, I don't care if it runs on Integromat or whatever, I want a result and I want someone to take care of it, I want it to run, I want someone to develop it. "It's really more for the curious and the uninitiated. Maybe someone from the Sapper group will come along eventually, we'll see. My vision is to make as much automation available to as many companies as possible, and here's one way to get closer to making that happen.
Martin Hurych
What other types, besides what you said - direct printing of documents from CRM - do you have in there? And will I need you, or can I really do it myself?
Eduard Hlava
2 basically unrelated questions, but I'll try in order.
What's next? Then there is the "sales machine", which handles part of the communication with the customer and inside the company, from the initial enquiry to further communication with the customer, making an appointment, internal communication towards the salespeople, creating activity, etc. That's one example.
Then there's Android, a simple automaton that operates Facebook Messenger on the website. It responds to what a customer or visitor to a company website asks for. That's another automaton that is actually very fast in terms of deployment, it addresses the basic needs of the company.
But what I want to say to that, maybe to step a little bit into that second question. It's not a closed box, it's not a box that you buy and there's nothing you can do. It's expandable. After all, there's always some initial and ongoing modification, customization of the machine. But the basis is always basically the same.
Another automated process is just the extraction of documents, especially non-invoices. I think there are a lot more possibilities and opportunities because there are a lot of products that can mine invoices.
Or there's a machine to simplify communication on LinkedIn.
At the beginning, of course, someone - me - always has to set up the machine and connect the systems you have - to the CRM, etc. Then the machine should run basically without intervention. Of course, it is possible to monitor - and it is monitored - how the machine works. And whether or not you need me, the answer is simple. It's about whether or not you want to develop the automaton in some way, to develop the process and the automation that you have in your company.
How to automate?
Martin Hurych
As part of your mission and from canola to automation robots, you've freshly produced an e-book for listeners and viewers called "How to Automate". What do we find there?
Eduard Hlava
This is my e-book debut. I'm glad you first mentioned this e-book here at Ignition. It's a great opportunity. The e-book is just for the uninitiated and the inquisitive. Since we've broken it down so nicely here, I'll use it again. And it's really an introduction to automation. My vision is to use that e-book or guide to start the mind of whoever is going to read it, whether it's the CEO of the company or the marketing manager, the sales manager, etc., thinking about automation and process improvement as such. In that handbook, which is divided into two parts. In the first part, it's kind of a philosophical, more of a thought-provoking, introduction to automation. Why to start with automation, how to think about it, where the most common obstacles are. And I also have 1-2 pages on how to convince either management, if the idea of automation germinates within the team, or vice versa, how to convince the people below you from the management side to start thinking in this direction at all. And the second part is sort of a summary of ideas and tips for simple automation. An inspiration maybe. It's a section to inspire readers to look at what automations have already been created that I publish there and find interesting. My goal is to show what is possible. And maybe to get readers to think "aha, the automation here works like this, but I'd like it differently", That way to get people to start looking into automation.
Martin Hurych
For that, I certainly thank you on behalf of the viewers and listeners. The e-book will be available for download in the Ignition section of my website at www.martinhurych.com. Before we shut it down completely. I always ask my guests for some closure, some summary in two or three sentences. Why would I even want to read the e-book? Why should I consider automation? What is the distilled wisdom of Ed Head for this Ignition?
Eduard Hlava
About 2-3 sentences. First - automate before others automate you. And the second sentence - automation is not a science, it's not something you need a lot of deep scientific knowledge to do. Basically, anyone who wants to can start automating.
Martin Hurych
For my part, I would add that with Integromat, it doesn't take millions
Eduard Hlava
That's right.
Martin Hurych
You mentioned TyAutomaty.cz. Where can we find you if we want to talk to you?
Eduard Hlava
You can find me either on my website hlava.net or on LinkedIn. There you can find me by name. Eduard Hlava. I think there's only one from the Czech Republic. I have information about myself there, I publish articles there, information, interesting things about automation, so if you don't follow me yet or I don't have you in my circles, add me, don't be shy, we can inspire each other.
Martin Hurych
Okay. It was great. Thank you so much, Edo.
Eduard Hlava
Thanks again for inviting me, too. Have a nice day.
Martin Hurych
That was Ed Head. If we've got you fired up for automation and the change from canola to robots, we've done our job exceedingly well. If you enjoyed this episode for any other reason as well, be sure to give it a subscription, either in your podcast app or maybe on YouTube. As I've mentioned a few times, be sure to check out the original episode at www.martinhurych.com as well, where all the bonuses are, as well as the bonus for this episode. And all I can do is cross my fingers and wish you success.
Thank you.
(Shortened, edited, automatically translated by DeepL)