He says if he had been born a hundred years ago, he wouldn't have made a living. He can't work with his hands. But he was born a programmer.
Michal Čumpelík is the CTO of Tabidoo, which is a platform for creating record-keeping software.
Come to think of it, I was probably born a trader, except that I could have been trading 100 years ago.
Despite the fact that Tabidoo actually offers companies to create their own SW with a few clicks, Michal Čumpelík rates Czech developers as one of the best in the world. He's just a bit sorry that they lack pride and courage. When it comes to breaking bread, they reach for foreign solutions.
Michal doesn't want to take away the work of programmers with low-code and no-code, on the contrary he wants to let them think about new SW.
There are a lot of things that people and companies can do on their own, and that makes the programmers' job easier and frees up their hands. After all, there is no need to burn developers' time and talent on adding one column or one column to an app.
With Michal we discussed not only IT but also the philosophical topic of Czech pride...
🔸 How do programmers view low-code / no-code platforms?
🔸 When and why should I want my own app?
🔸 How to prioritize development?
🔸 Why choose your application definition?
🔸 Do Czechs lack pride?
Finally, Michal pats himself on the back and offers a really good bonus, this time
a discount on paid Tabidoo services. So listen up and download.
TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW
Martin Hurych
Hello. I'm Martin Hurych and this is Zážeh. Today's Ignition will be another in a mini-series about low-code, no-code platforms, but today it's from a different barrel. Welcome to Michal Čumpelík.
Michal Čumpelík
Hello and thanks for the invitation.
Who made Michal feel better?
Martin Hurych
Michal works as CTO of Tabidoo project. So today we'll talk about record-keeping applications, enterprise applications and why Michal thinks it's a good idea to build an application based on exactly what you need in your company. But before we get to that, I've been known to do staging, and what struck me about yours is that you like people who exude good humor. So I was wondering who lifted your spirits on the way here today, or who did you lift your spirits?
Michal Čumpelík
If I think about it, there's probably a few people on the subway. Mostly they're sitting there and they're all glued to their cell phones, but today there were a lot of people reading a book, listening to music, and I was happy about it. But unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to lift anyone's spirits myself.
What is Tabidoo and Michael's journey to Tabidoo
Martin Hurych
Let's take a look at Tabidoo. To give us a sense of where you stand in the low-code, no-code scene, let's give a brief introduction to both Tabidoo and your journey to Tabidoo.
Michal Čumpelík
Tabidoo is a platform for creating record-keeping software. Anyone can create a warehouse management, some fleet management, a list of cars or a CRM, which is a list of clients and information about them. It's mainly aimed at people, not programmers, so anyone can create it. I like to liken it to the fact that back in the day, if you needed to make an e-commerce store or publish an e-commerce store, you had to reach out to a development company. They programmed it for you, they built it for you, they took care of it for you, and it was quite an expensive affair. You didn't do it yourself. Then all of a sudden somebody figured out that there was no need for it. All you had to do was sit down, say what colour you wanted, what logo you wanted, put the stuff on there and in a second anybody could have an e-shop on the internet. We projected that into record keeping software, where people, if they wanted custom software, again, had to ask some company, pay for expensive custom development there, but that's not needed at all. For me, there's no added value from the programmer. I think everyone can define it themselves. So we have created a platform where everybody can really define their own record-keeping software. But it's not just a simple spreadsheet, it's a full filing software with all the functionality like history, quick search or workflow automation.
Martin Hurych
How did you come to this project?
Michal Čumpelík
I say you are born a programmer and I was born a programmer. For me, it's a great pity that I wasn't born 100 years earlier, when there were no computers, because I would have been completely useless manually. But the main reason was that when you do software development, you always do a log screen, there's always some rights, there's some table, you search in that table, and so on. Then it finishes, closes and starts again from scratch. You can also use some framework, some platform, but basically it never gets done. We got to the point where we were tired of doing it and we didn't let ourselves get discouraged by the talk that it's impossible to do it yourself, that we can't make it work. We just drew it up, we got on with it and I'm very happy that we made it to the end. It's really working, it's helping people and they're happy about it.
How do programmers view low-code / no-code platforms?
Martin Hurych
It seems to me that all of you who do low-code, no-code platforms are such rebels because you're programmers fighting against programmers. So how does the programming community view you?
Michal Čumpelík
I wouldn't force it on programmers. We don't want to get rid of programmers because there are a lot of games, there are graphics systems, you have PLCs. There will always be a need for programmers, but using them to add a column to your spreadsheet, to create that column in the database, and to get the communication layer going, that seems like a complete waste of talent to me. You don't need a programmer for that. So we're not going against programmers, we just want to eliminate stereotypical activities and simple things that in our eyes don't need a programmer to do. Like I said with the e-shop thing, there will always be some big company that will have an e- shop custom written. It's going to have specific requirements, it's got the resources, it's got billions of dollars in sales and every percentage point in there is going to make a huge amount. But there are a lot of people who want a standard e-shop, and you don't need a programmer for that.
When and why should I want my own app?
Martin Hurych
We discussed in an episode here that there are a billion different apps in the world that solve a billion different problems. What are the reasons why I should want to have my own app and not use what someone else has already made? Because Saas has spawned a whole bunch, I do a lot of business, so let's talk about why I should build my own CRM and not use something that's already on the market.
Michal Čumpelík
If you find something on the market that is and it suits you 100%, I would say don't make your own app. But people are also running to us from the big names, Raynet and the like, because they're paying for an app where they're not getting 90% of the functionality. It doesn't fit their business, they keep bending it to fit their business, and in the end it doesn't deliver savings. You say there's an app for everything. But then, when you have 6 or 7 apps instead of one that is universal, you are constantly training people in more and more apps, paying for different licenses, and now something stops working. It's counterproductive, and it makes people dislike computers. I'm not even going to talk about the fact that there's an emergency situation like Covid or something like that, and you don't have an app on the market that keeps track of PCR tests on your employees and tells you when they've expired or who's vaccinated. Those who have Tabidoo basically do the record keeping overnight, automate it, and don't worry about such things.
How to create a small ERP on Tabidoo?
Martin Hurych
So how do you build some small business ERP around Tabidoo?
Michal Čumpelík
I would start with a very simple table. When you log into Tabidoo, you create an app with one click. The app is simple, it just has a name, you don't do anything there, and then you put your tables in. I would start with some simple record keeping. I would picture in my head what I'm putting into Excel. For example, I have the company cars and the date of the next technical inspection in Excel. Then you put in a list of customers. With the customer list, again, you don't have to do anything complicated, you write down the history,
who called them, when they called them, when to call them. You turn on notifications there to remind you to call in a month. You go step by step like that and the system grows with you. It has unlimited possibilities and does an awful lot, even though it's very simple at first glance. So I would start with a simple case register, then you can put in merchants, evaluate your margins, link it to your accounting, generate automatic invoices, load your invoices and so on.
Should I build the app myself or hire a pro?
Martin Hurych
You write on the website that everyone can click on the app. Is it the job of the business owner to click his own app, or do you recommend to take someone who is a pro at Tabidoo and can even take a critical look at my business, give me some feedback and then click my app?
Michal Čumpelík
I guess it depends. Some people have a relationship with it and some people don't. We have business owners, or heads of some departments, who are already doing it anyway and are happy to do it themselves and customize it themselves. Once they have that relationship to it, I definitely recommend doing it, trying it out, because anyone who has a relationship to it and a little bit of analytical thinking will really do it. But we also have companies that don't want to do it, that see how easy it is, see how fast it is, but don't have the time to do it. Then, of course, we're happy to pass that on to partners who will sit down with them, analyze their requirements and build it for them. So it's a case by case basis.
Martin Hurych
When we had Dalibor Houfek here, we talked about the fact that low-code, no-code platforms can replace code in some cases. You've taken a slightly different path. What led you to the fact that you don't generate the code, but you generate the application by doing and seeing what is being created under your hands?
Michal Čumpelík
That's tricky. We're not generating the app. It's just that you define how the application should behave. You say you want a license plate column, which is a mandatory column, car type, car name, inspection date, and those columns appear in that table. We certainly don't generate the code, we did that I think in 2005 in one company, they still use it and it's not a bad solution, sometimes it's useful somewhere, but you have to maintain the code. We release a new version of Tabidoo every week, every 14 days, users are always on the latest version and it works for them automatically and maintenance free. You tell Tabidoo how to behave, what to do, and we do the rest.
How do they prioritize development at Tabidoo?
Martin Hurych
I was intrigued by a lot of things on your site about what Ignition is actually about. Ignition is very much about business and innovation, so let me turn the page a little bit and ask a few questions. What I observe as a very common contradiction in my bubble is that it's very difficult to find the balance between how to treat your own roadmap and where to take your product. The two extremes are that either I'm extremely pro-customer and start processing almost every customer request, or I'm stubborn and insist that what I dreamed up in the roadmap is the right thing to do and that's how the app should behave. How do you feel about this? When do you discount your ideas, or do you recognize that the customer has it figured out better and take inspiration from the outside world, and when do you stick more to the idea of planned Tabidoo development?
Michal Čumpelík
It's a combination of both. We started out with not that many customers, we were developing software for 5 or 6 companies, and we put a lot into their feedback. Plus, we had a lot of experience with similar software, so making a basic roadmap wasn't that hard. Since then, we've been very much guided by what customers want. We have a lot of feedbacks out there, people ask us for some functionality and we evaluate how common that request is and how it fits into Tabidoo. We certainly don't throw Tabidoo down with some request to make it complicated and make it unusable for people. That's the basic concern, we want everyone to be able to use it. We're certainly not going to do anything in there that goes against that basic idea. But we follow almost strictly the customer requirements. We collect those, we evaluate how often they're there, what the workload is, and we act accordingly.
Martin Hurych
So you can see the roadmap for how far ahead?
Michal Čumpelík
We have long-term goals in there and I would say it's planned for about 3 months, 6 months. Our roadmap is basically created by the customer and a lot of input from the sales department. We evaluate it weekly, but it's from a question of priority and where we've moved. I think it's pretty much off the ground.
Martin Hurych
I met with a potential client this week, where we had a free-flowing discussion about how they approach the roadmap. How's it going for you at Tabidoo? If I come to you and say I need something badly and we high five it's a good idea, do you put me at the end of the roadmap, do you reschedule the whole thing for me, or do you leave capacity in the roadmap for requests like that?
Michal Čumpelík
There is a reserve in capacity and there must always be. So if you come up with something that's a really good idea and a lot of customers want it, it can get up the roadmap a little bit. Then we have paid development, that if it's a really good idea, a lot of customers want it and you need it, then you can pay extra and for us that's a sign that it's really necessary.
Martin Hurych
That's a great moment. So for this paid development extra, which by the way is often a good way to partially pay for the development of the whole app up front, are spare capacities in the roadmap?
Michal Čumpelík
We always have to have that extra capacity. What I'm saying is, we don't have deadlines. We always have to have that extra capacity there, and it's because we don't release functionality. We don't have a deadline of the 14th, we release it the moment it is ready, tested and we stand by that. We don't have one company telling us what needs to be and when to close it. For us, capacity is easier to plan from that standpoint.
Martin Hurych
So what motivates you to push forward as quickly as possible? Because I imagine that a lot of people say that if there's no deadline, it doesn't matter when they finish their work. If the roadmap isn't set in stone, then potentially one can get lazy or off the roadmap very quickly. How do you handle that in your business?
Michal Čumpelík
We probably don't have anyone there who's lazy and I can't imagine they'll sit down and say it's not until the 20th, so they'll have coffee for 14 days. That person probably wouldn't have anything to do. We're working on it 100%, we give the new version to the customer every week the moment it's tested, proven and we stand behind it. We don't have a problem with laziness.
Why Tabidoo chose their application definition
Martin Hurych
I was intrigued by another thing on the site. You say that Tabidoo is not a low-code platform, but that it is a registration platform. The other one you use is a platform for enterprise applications. What led you to make this definition and how did it work for you?
Michal Čumpelík
We didn't want to define ourselves at first. For example, if you have an Excel Sheet, you can write anything, it's for everyone and it can handle both simple lists of people and complex systems communicating with the server. We weren't defined in the beginning because we said exactly that you can use it for everything. We didn't address anybody, nobody found themselves in it. So I guess you could say we're kind of switching it up now. Now is the time when we're trying to reach out to companies because we have the most company applications where companies are porting other software or putting records in there about things that weren't recorded before. They put it into Tabidoo and it's beautifully organized. So there's a bit of a landing page aimed at them now, telling them what they can do in it. You can do anything in Tabidoo, but it didn't pay us to say it like that because then nobody imagined anything under it.
Martin Hurych
How long did this epiphany take you?
Michal Čumpelík
Fortunately, not for long, because we've reached out to bigger experts in marketing and advertising than us. But it's true that we really thought in the beginning that we would write a great platform, it would suit everyone and there would be lines of people outside the door cheering how great it was. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. It was that we really had to start explaining what low-code, no- code was because a lot of people got burned by low-quality products where it didn't work and those people dismissed the whole industry. So we had to explain it again and give examples because people couldn't imagine it. That helped us a lot.
Martin Hurych
You corrected me quite correctly when we were talking about the fact that you don't generate the code, you configure the application. Is it a good idea to compare myself to low-code, no-code platforms when I have a configurable application?
Michal Čumpelík
A lot of things fit under low-code, no-code. You can put in a simple table where there's really no code in the background and it's kind of like a Google Sheet. You can put a code generator in there where you define something and you generate the code, but then it annoys you with doing development.
What is the target group for Tabidoo?
Martin Hurych
Who are you targeting at the moment? Who is your target group?
Michal Čumpelík
The target group has long been smaller and medium-sized companies, because it is harder to break into large corporations. There, people already have a huge responsibility and prefer to choose huge solutions to be off the hook when things go wrong. But there are also sports clubs, or artisans, whatever.
How did the first trader help?
Martin Hurych
You praised Adam, your trader, in your preparation, so let me talk a little bit about the experience, what it's like to recruit your first trader and what he helped you a lot with specifically.
Michal Čumpelík
He is mainly pro user and can communicate with those people much better than we can. He's not that technical, how many times he corrects me when I present to a customer that he really doesn't care how many servers we have, how many geolocations, and that it's running on Kubernetes. He would punch me if I used those technical words. So it helped us a lot in communicating with the customer. Plus, he's been good at taking on customer needs and taking care of customers. He has now chosen the direction of partners, where he provides them with tremendous support because we can't keep up with the implementation. There are already a lot of customers, it doesn't seem like it, but Tabidoo has already expanded a lot and we can't support all the customers and implement when they need something. So Adam does a lot of partner support, making sure that they have all the documentation, that they have all the information and that they can contact us. But mainly he has opened our eyes from the technical aspect to the user aspect.
Martin Hurych
When did it come that you were ripe for needing a salesman?
Michal Čumpelík
It came long before Adam joined, but it was hard for us to find someone like that. It was hard to find someone who had the technical insight to be able to talk to us but also be able to communicate with the end customers. So we looked for a long time.
What are the benefits of affiliate selling?
Martin Hurych
You're building affiliate sales. We've had a few episodes on affiliate sales as well. What are you looking for in it? What does affiliate sales bring to your business besides the speed of implementing more customers?
Michal Čumpelík
It certainly brings us that we are not able to take care of so many customers, we can't implement. On the contrary, there is just a benefit when they reach out to that partner, they need integration, and we are not able to provide that capacity to all customers. So now partners help us tremendously. In addition, we also help them because they have a network of customers, they know their needs and they need to deliver some system that helps them, that solves their agenda, and you can't program everything. It wouldn't be affordable and it doesn't make sense to do custom software for everything. To my customers.
So they can offer Tabidoo, or they can create their own solution under their branding, under their logo, under their URL and offer them their own solution. So the help is mutual. We offer them a solution at a fraction of the cost and time and we couldn't do it without them. The amount of customers is already large and we can't define applications for them.
Martin Hurych
So what does a typical partner company look like? If I wanted to be a Tabidoo gold certified partner, what would I look like?
Michal Čumpelík
I'm on thin ice now, because this is from the shop and I do more of the technical stuff there. But the way I see it in the training, it's a company that comes into contact with the customer a lot, knows their needs and the customer trusts them. He contacts them with, for example, a problem that he has simple stock where it's just flowing through, it doesn't fit into any solution, he's losing items and he's not able to make a claim because he can't even get a serial number. So the partner says he can make a simple application for that and help him. He can of course start developing it in some programming language, but it will do very little and consume huge resources.
What are Tabidoo's international plans?
Martin Hurych
From the way you and Adam exude enthusiasm, which you transfer to the whole company, it is clear to me that you will not stop in the Czech Republic. So what are your ambitions for where Tabidoo will be in 2, 3 years?
Michal Čumpelík
We didn't even ride in Bohemia, so we can't stop there. We made it localized for several languages from the beginning and there was never a focus that it should only work in the Czech Republic and then elsewhere. The service is of the type that there's no reason at all to limit it to the Czech Republic. We started worldwide from the beginning with the idea that of course the focus on Czech is there because we can talk to people better, get feedback from them and we are proud of where we are from. However, from the beginning we started to promote it in Europe and in the Czech Republic, we also leaked it to America through some ads, so we have overseas customers as well. So we're definitely not going to stop in the Czech Republic because we've never done that. Rather, we're talking about whether in a couple of years we're going to help partners and focus on them or focus on individual customers. But we can't decide in the long term anymore. The product is still the same, it suits everybody, but for example the support and materials we prepare for them are then different.
Martin Hurych
When will we see you from Karlín in Silicon Valley?
Michal Čumpelík
I'd hate to do that. I've been in the States for a long time, it's beautiful, I'd definitely like to go there anytime, but I think that we here in the Czech Republic can do software, there are bigger software houses than us and I'd like to stay here. Plus, there's an amazing WorkLounge in Karlín where they take care of us, we don't worry about whether the printer is printing, the coffee machine is making coffee and we can really go about our business. So I hope we will stay in Karlín for a while.
Why does Michal think Czechs lack pride?
Martin Hurych
I like that a lot and it's such an artless donkey's bridge to what I found in preparation. You write, that the Czechs lack pride. What do you mean by that?
Michal Čumpelík
I may have been a bit more sharp in my preparation, but the way I see it, when I come to a foreign hotel for a holiday, they'll throw in their local drinks. When a German company sets up a branch here, you stick German software in, even if it doesn't fit, and we don't have that here. We have amazing solutions here, we have amazing software houses here, but sometimes I feel like we're not helping ourselves a little bit, that we feel worldly the moment we use some worldly software, a worldly product, offer worldly wines. Yet we make great wines here, great software here, and I think we should help each other more and be proud of how we do things here.
Martin Hurych
Isn't it often the case that we don't want to push our own product against the world? In my bubble, I have customers from your world, young guys from the software house, and I often see that the ambition ends up selling people or whatever to someone who then sells it on. They don't want to perform with their face, with their brand, at their peril, like you do. Do you observe that as well, or why did you actually go out on a limb to have your own product and not sit back and write for a foreign startup in Sweden, in Holland, or wherever?
Michal Čumpelík
I guess it's nature. I also have friends, programmer friends, who of course sit in a big corporation, now in a home office, they deal with a lot of things, they have peace and quiet and it suits them. We wouldn't want that. We really like doing it, we enjoy it, we feel the success behind it, we see how it helps these people, how it saves them time, we get mostly positive feedback on it and I would say it energizes us. We wouldn't want to sit in a company and just convert ideas into apartments.
Martin Hurych
I wish there were more of you.
Michal Čumpelík
I think there are a lot of people like that. We have a WorkLounge full of them. It's such a community of people who are energized and pushing forward. My bubble is very action-packed.
Bonus
Martin Hurych
That's great, I'm glad to hear that. You guys have a special bonus for us.
Michal Čumpelík
If someone is listening to this podcast and wants to try Tabidoo, they will get a screen after they sign up and if they fill in the word Ignition, they will get a 50% discount from us. If they get us on a paid program at any point in the future, they should get the first year for 50% off. I would extend him maybe a trial, but we have that trial unlimited and the user can try it as long as he wants as long as he doesn't exceed any dates. So I'd be happy if you could include a discount coupon
type in the word Ignition and in a few seconds you'll be assured that if you want to buy Tabidoo in the future, you'll get a discount there.
Martin Hurych
Thank you very much, we will definitely try it. If we look for you, we can find you in WorkLounge in Karlín, but electronically where can we find you?
Michal Čumpelík
The best place to look is tabidoo.cloud. There's already all the information, contacts and most importantly there's a big "try it" button and I would say that those people should really try it out. It doesn't cost anything to sign up and enter a discount code, so I recommend creating an app, creating a spreadsheet, taking some time to do that because it can save a huge amount of time in the future. Plus it can motivate people, work is more fun then because it takes away that stereotypical annoying activity. I think we have something to offer everyone. So don't hesitate to sign up, try it out, we've already helped a lot of people and we can help others.
Martin Hurych
I'm definitely signing this. Take 15 minutes, it will improve your days, weeks and years, I am an example of this myself, I couldn't do much without general automation and robotics as a one man corporation. Fingers crossed for you.
Michal Čumpelík
Thank you.
Martin Hurych
Let there be more and more such projects. Before you run off and go try Tabidoo, give me one last minute, maybe two. We've already heard about the bonus, and it will certainly be repeated within my website, www.martinhurych.com, in the Ignition section, where you'll find other transcripts and links to Tabidoo. Before that, give likes and subscriptions, either on YouTube or in your podcast app. All I can do is cross my fingers and wish you success, thanks.