"Choose the right target group and verify your contact details. Create content marketing that your target audience will understand. From there, create a call script. Find someone who can communicate it. And consistently follow up on all actions so you don't destroy your contacts."
He is feared by the merchants. They'd rather write 20 more emails than pick it up. Or they'll go move opportunities in CRM. Because the potential rejection is too painful.
He's scared of his customers. When he calls an unknown number, they'd rather stick it deep in their pockets and pretend they're not there. Afraid that someone from the call center will push something into their heads again.
Phone.
A thing we each have no more than half a meter apart. On purpose. Did I get it?
Still, it's the most underrated tool in the trade for some, and the most terrible for others.
Michal Vacek from Český marketing s.r.o. can't afford it. On several levels. Firstly, he believes that telephoning is a higher level of communication and thus more successful than online. Secondly, telephoning is his livelihood, or rather the job of his communication agency.
And so I asked around...
🔸 What is the difference between a call centre and a communication agency?
🔸 What is "overproduction" and "outsourced back office"?
🔸 Why is personal communication and trust 50% of what you buy?
🔸 How to deal with the frustration of rejection on the phone?
🔸 What are the key points of effective direct marketing?
TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW
Martin Hurych
Hello. I'm Martin Hurych and this is Zazeh. Today's Zazeh will be about marketing, specifically direct marketing, telemarketing, and when it comes to these topics, it's with Michal Vack. Hello, Michal.
Michal Vacek
Hello, Martin.
What kind of marketing are Michael's grandchildren using?
Martin Hurych
Michal is the managing director and owner of Czech Marketing. I was wondering as I was reading the preparation, what marketing are your grandchildren using on you to get their way?
Michal Vacek
You surprised me, but it's pretty simple. Kids set certain limits and try to lift, lift, and lift, and practically it's about what you either endure or what you allow.
Martin Hurych
What does this have to do with marketing?
Michal Vacek
In marketing, you have to stand by your limit. Standing behind what I do and being able to articulate where my limit is, what my product is, standing behind that product, behind that service, etc.
Introduction of Michal and Czech Marketing
Martin Hurych
We got to know each other while working with a client. I'm very impressed with how you do it. So first of all, let me ask you to give me a short introduction to Czech Marketing and how you got into it. Then we'll dive a little bit into what makes you different in the marketplace.
Michal Vacek
Czech Marketing was founded 15 years ago as a company that processed company databases. It was because I had previously worked as a GIS specialist, which is map data processing. I did various analyses and actually introduced the collection of postcodes at the checkout counters in the chains here. It wasn't good quality data, it wasn't homologated, it didn't have coordinates back then and so on, and so I created the company database system that we still use today. That's how our company came into being. Over time, I have seen that our clients are not able to use the databases to their full potential. I wondered what the client really wanted, what service or product they wanted, what result they wanted from me as a marketing agency. Of course, he wants to deliver virtually an order on a golden platter. That's absolutely the best. He wants to bring in a hot client who already knows what it is and is interested in starting a business relationship with that company and entering into some communication and an outcome that ultimately, therefore, he's going to order that service or product from that customer.
What is the difference between a call centre and a communication agency?
Martin Hurych
I'm sure we'll get to that. You say on your website that you are not a call centre, but a communication agency. How to understand this difference?
Michal Vacek
I never wanted to be a call center. More or less, I never wanted to listen to what the client wanted and how they wanted to communicate. So I don't get any companies that want to sell tariffs, they'll train our assistants and stuff like that. We are a communications agency primarily in the B2B segment because of GDPR and so on. We have never done, nor have we ever considered doing the B2C segment. The main difference between standard call centres is that our goal is actually quite different than calling a database with a result. Our goal is to create that client
a new communication sales channel that is as effective as possible and is under his direct online control. This means that our clients can see online into the campaign, into all the data, and we are virtually unable to distort those values and data. It's such a close collaboration that clients will sometimes refer to us as part of their company. The goal is nothing more than to really give them very high quality hot leads and then our service continues with the START1000 plus product where our assistant continues to work with the sales rep. She calls the salesperson after the meeting, asks how the meeting went and does the same at the client level. There, of course, she learns the real truth, how the meeting went, what it got him, she follows that lifecycle all the way through the process of that order, even though sometimes it takes a long time. The life cycle of that sale is very long today and clients don't really perceive that they have to wait for that business yet.
What is the state of telemarketing in the Czech Republic?
Martin Hurych
Before we get to the individual phases, if I need to market or call you, let's talk about the current state of telemarketing in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Thanks to what is going on in calling energy, tariffs and mobile operators, it seems to me that there is a great barrier and reluctance against call centres or communication agencies. How do you see it when you swim in this pond?
Michal Vacek
Call centres have ruined their business over time by the quality of the telephoning, various machinations with databases, handing over and exchanging and so on. Today, there are still call centres that do these services, and let them continue to do so if the law allows them to do so. However, as I said in the introduction, we do something completely different, because our assistant is actually in a working relationship with our client and is the assistant to the sales manager. She is tasked with calling that sales manager at that target company and setting up a meeting there, if that makes sense, of course. So that's a completely different view of telemarketing than you probably know.
For which target group is the service suitable?
Martin Hurych
In order to properly choose an example to describe how this service you're offering should ideally work, or how to maybe build that service in-house within the company, let's talk about what your typical target audience is at this point. Try to let us go a little bit further and tell us what's hot right now in B2B. You're calling out primarily B2B, so let's say what you're doing and we'll choose an example to describe it accordingly.
Michal Vacek
We choose our clients, it has to be a product or service that makes sense for that client and brings some benefit to that client. Gone are the days of the various hucksters and people who would like to sell services, training and other things. Nowadays, clients know this and are actually able to pay for something that will bring them something. It will bring them some kind of savings usually on the level of materials, management, company management, production, or something like that, but also time. Today, of course, the word automation in the broadest sense runs the most. Whether it's automation in manufacturing, or whether it's automation in management, company management, in reporting, financial reporting, and other things. There is also coming a time of various obligations from the European Union, where the European Union will require certain documents and outputs about companies, and that is perhaps one of the things that also has room for automation. It is documentation, document management, production of those documents and so on. Although we do a lot of IT solutions on these principles, so
Of course, there are also solutions such as warehouse systems, whether classic, semi-automated or automated. These are different products and services for production that save that traffic, or people who are then used to do the work where they have to think and not do mechanical work. Robotisation is therefore very topical today.
How to prepare before the invocation?
Martin Hurych
Let's say I am a warehouse management system vendor and I need to call my database or call the market. What should I do to potentially enter into cooperation with you, what should I prepare and how should I initiate the whole thing?
Michal Vacek
First of all, the source of the databases, what subjects are to be called, has to be addressed. That in itself is a very difficult thing. The databases are filtered according to target groups and various parameters. You have to have the tools for that, you have to have good quality and up-to-date data, or data from the CRM as far as the company is concerned. Because we know that the objects of activity of those companies are not well registered according to the state information system, we even have to check those companies manually via the website. We do this to put only companies that make sense on the phone and to minimize losses and costs.
Martin Hurych
Does this mean that you already supply the database or do I, as a company, have to bring my own database on call?
Michal Vacek
Because we are, as I said in the introduction, also a database supplier, we have our own system and filtering application, but the client can of course also supply the database. First of all, we also call appointments abroad, so we eventually work with other suppliers to get those foreign databases there. It's important to say that we also do the calling and updating of the clients for the CRM data at that client, because there's a lot of neglect of that communication from the sales people's point of view and clients lose repeat business.
What is "overproduction" and "outsourced back office"?
Martin Hurych
We have selected a market segment that we want to appeal to. Then what is the next phase?
Michal Vacek
Then you need to do content marketing, the content of that phone call. That's very important. We do practically 50% of our clients so called re-production of that communication, that product or service. It's about making the service understandable to the other side. Because those companies are looking at it subjectively, from inside the company, so they don't control it, it has to be done by an outsider who is on the outside and who is hearing it for the first time. They have to set up that communication so that within two sentences in that call you have to explain to the client why you're calling, what you're calling about and what's in it for them. Then the call script is produced. We have our own know-how on how to handle these calls. It is important to say here that there is another part and that is the assistants. We don't call them operators because they are not really call centre operators. They are assistants specially selected and trained to communicate. We do a lot of natural communication training and things like that, because they're the ones in the moment. actually employed by that company and that sales rep. So there's no shaming them in any way.
How does cooperation work on a daily basis?
Martin Hurych
In simple terms, this means an outsourced back office. That's great. So we have a lady, or a lady who starts calling us. You said she's turning into a temporary assistant to the sales manager. So how does the collaboration between them work on a day-to-day basis? You said the goal is to get the salesman to the meeting. Is that right?
Michal Vacek
Yes, but I have to say that the goal is not to make the appointment at any cost. The content and the goal of our phone calls are two important things. The first is to get to a competent person, a function in the company that makes the decision or is a co-decision maker. The second thing is to explain the product or the reason why we're calling and what it can do for them. Our content is not to push the client into an appointment. He has to figure it out on his own and ask for the appointment because he has to feel that the service is interesting and that he might need it.
Martin Hurych
I asked on a daily basis how the communication between my outsourced assistant and me as a sales manager works then. What should I prepare myself for?
Michal Vacek
There you are normally in daily communication, more with the supervisor, but you may also be in communication with the operator, directly with the assistant, strictly speaking. I have to say that there are often personal relationships there as well. They chat, those relationships are very good and it goes into such small things that really the sales rep will call the assistant at any time and tell them what not to say, what to say differently and how to respond to a question.
What is the success rate of calling a meeting?
Martin Hurych
I was interested in another thing. If I understand correctly, you guys are being rewarded for supplying me with a hot lead. How is that measured, and I understand that there's going to be a big variance depending on the product, but what kind of conversion, number to some appointment should I prepare for? What can I actually expect?
Michal Vacek
It depends on the product, on the service. It also depends on the complexity of the service and the product and the price. The bigger the product, the more complex, of course it's harder to get that company to replace the whole system, for example ERP systems and systems that cost a lot of money and investment. So the conversion there can be much smaller, it can range from 5%, but normally we most often do results around 10, 12 to some 45%, depending on the product. If it's a product that's commonly used, for example, those companies are using it in a big way, we're really getting to 30, 40% pretty easily.
Why is personal communication and trust 50% of what you buy?
Martin Hurych
I was intrigued by one thing on the site in the context of what we've been saying about traditional call centers and how their reputation is tarnished. I'll read it so I don't screw it up somehow. In business, personal communication and personal trust is 50% of what a client buys from you. What do you mean, how do I understand that?
Michal Vacek
I stand by that. If you want to sell something, the client will buy it from you and those clients have gone through that history from the revolution to today, how they were called by call centers and so on, so today is of course a completely different time and it has to have two conditions. The product or the service has to actually deliver something to them. Another condition is that the client is actually buying you as a person, not just the service or product. He's buying trust in your person. He's trusting you that if you invite him to the podcast that it's going to work for him, that you're a professional, that he's going to get some output that he envisions and that that output is going to bring him something. I now trust you personally that it will, and I buy that. So it's not just about the podcast as a service.
Martin Hurych
To what extent can this be outsourced to someone outside the company? You and I know each other, we did business together, but the first contact I will have with the assistant, and that's where the trust has to be transferred, so it's more complicated. So how do you act in this?
Michal Vacek
We do the hardest work, which is of course demanding, and I have to say that sales reps don't do it well enough. It's that initial communication from finding a contact to being able to call a competent person in the company. They often sell it straight into the phone and so on. Having an assistant represent them and do that initial communication, including the initial email communication, starts to create confidence in the communication. The sales rep then follows up on that. It's already broken, that trust is already built there, that client knows what's going on, who they're communicating with, and the sales rep then takes over the trust that's already been broken.
How to deal with the frustration of rejection on the phone?
Martin Hurych
Thinking about it in purely human terms, a lot of people are scared as hell of making phone calls because they are afraid of rejection. How do you motivate the ladies, the assistants, or how do you work with them? If you say on the first try that the conversion rate is 5%, that's almost a permanent rejection on the phone. What about that, how do you work with that?
Michal Vacek
There are a lot of companies that don't accept any information on principle, which is a huge loss for them. As we know, these people are supposed to be educated and they are supposed to learn about new things and new possibilities, which in this case they will not do, even though we want to give them information about some optimal solution for them that will save them money and so on. That is a very big part of the rejection, but I have to say that nowadays a lot of it is for other reasons, such as personnel reasons, financial reasons, changes in companies and so on.
Martin Hurych
This is a refusal on the part of the client. I'm more interested in how you work with that humanly in your company, because you're sitting on a product that's not bad, but it's expensive, it's complex, it's hard to sell, and the other side is already using something. How do you actually work with your team in the sense that you sit down in front of your phone in the morning and you know that there's a bunch of phone calls in front of you that aren't going to lead to your goal? If I understand correctly, you're rewarded for every xth call that goes through. That must be frustrating for a lot of people because naturally you don't like rejection and this is permanent rejection.
Michal Vacek
We can look at it from two sides. From the side of us, Czech Marketing, as the leaders who have the responsibility to make the campaign as good as possible, there is a responsibility to find a solution to the communication. I also mentioned that we need to produce the service, the product, in order to communicate it. Throughout the campaign, we address every task or every part of the campaign because if you don't do one of them, the whole campaign fails. So, on our side, we have to trust the service, the product. We're living that product at the moment and that's the solution. Then we don't make a big deal out of the fact that there's a failure rate. From the point of view of the assistant making the call, we're actually trying to train her in exactly the same way. She knows that Czech Marketing only handles campaigns with some meaningful products and services. She knows what that product and that service is going to bring to that client, and she may not be upset that those people don't want it, but she looks at it the same way we do, that they're rather sorry that those clients are going to miss out on such valuable information.
How does a communications agency fit into the marketing mix?
Martin Hurych
I wonder how you interact with what is around you? Logically in marketing, this is one of the methods to raise awareness of the product you are selling at that particular moment. What does the ideal collaboration actually look like for you, for example, with social media marketing, with PPC, with some sort of creating awareness of that product before you go into direct marketing?
Michal Vacek
It's always a cost comparison. A lot of the companies that order our service from us today get burned on Internet advertising. When they get burned, it's not that they don't have some inquiries out there, it's that they're often curious people who fill up a huge amount of your time to deal with bids, but nothing comes of it. Then there's the matter of that investment in advertising. Whereas with our service there's almost a guarantee and a guarantee that we're always passing on a percentage to those clients. On average, we've found that 50% of the leads that we pass on, those clients will trade within a certain amount of time. Depending on the product, some are traded within three months, some are traded within six months, but of course we have systems and IT solutions that are traded within a year, two years. But the result is that they get traded.
Martin Hurych
Is it possible to say that I can do without other marketing activities purely with direct marketing?
Michal Vacek
I would say how I divide the whole process of marketing and sales. To break it down a little bit, I'm going to say that marketing is just a part, the first part of the whole process that has its own life cycle. It's there to produce the product, the content of that product or service, create the graphics, the copy, the PR, other things, and hand over to the sales department the material and the product to sell. That's the role of marketing. That's often misinterpreted today. Companies imagine that marketing, as such, is already selling. I don't think so. It has to go to the sales department, which of course includes online marketing, which is directly linked to the ordering system and traders. The role of marketing is mainly to produce that quality product, costing and other things. Then there's the life cycle of the sales team. But we'll talk about the acquisition part. That in itself has a life cycle that has a lot of operations that you have to accomplish. If you don't complete one, the campaign doesn't go well and that's the content of our service. In fact, it's pointless for sales reps to be looking for contacts, making leads, because they're too expensive and too valuable for that activity. They're supposed to be doing business, they're supposed to be going to clients, making offers, attending to existing clients and doing business, not prospecting and making phone calls. Then there's a third process and that's what we deal with after we hand over that lead, that's what I call sales. So it's marketing, acquisition and sales. Sales is in the hands of the sales reps. That's very underestimated, if you look at a lot of companies, the vast majority of the time, investment and effort goes into what's called marketing and only a small portion goes to the sales people. In reality, it has to be at least half and half, if not a lot more goes into sales. Today you need to support sales reps of course under hard control of all the things they do, that's what systems are there for today, they monitor all that person's work for you. They need to be respected, they need to have a certain place at the top in that company because they are the most important to that company, especially today. That used to be underestimated because those deals more or less went by themselves, or the deals were repetitive and so on. Today is a completely different time and every order, every client is extremely important, so you have to value sales reps and give them the support that we try to give them by outsourcing.
Martin Hurych
I have to say that you've hit the nail on the head now, because I'm already seeing comments on LinkedIn about how we're making salespeople look like royalty and everyone in the company is important. However, I agree with that. We need to keep telling ourselves that only the salesperson brings money into the firm.
Michal Vacek
What is the problem with envying the nobility? If the salesman is smart and really brings revenue and new clients to the firm, then pay him, respect him.
How to reward people based on their performance?
Martin Hurych
I was interested in one more thing. You wrote in the preparation that you got burned and such a little fuck-up was employing people and today you have developed a very good performance system. Can you share behind the scenes how that works for you at the moment? Because I see a lot of people struggling a little bit with the performance component.
Michal Vacek
That's right. It's a big problem that I went through too, I got burned. I had a brick and mortar call center, I employed people full time and it was pretty much by the hour, flat rate and things like that. Even though I had control mechanisms in place, it was insufficient. After the burn out, I completely switched my mind, reoriented myself and rode hard on the same system that I work on. We, as entrepreneurs, are paid solely for results, and I told myself that the same should be demanded of these people. I had already started hiring home office people a year before Covid, which gave us more choice. On the other hand, these are people you have to supervise more, so there was a lot of investment in supervision systems, training and other things. Building a team of people at Czech Marketing who can handle that communication and be good at it is a fundamental thing. Each of our employees is truly rewarded for performance and is set on prizes or rewards for individual operations. If he does them, he gets paid, if he only partially does them, he gets paid for what he does. My opinion is that this system, this principle, can be practically implemented in all companies, even if it does not seem so.
Martin Hurych
Do I understand correctly that both activities and results are rewarded, while at the same time rewarding things that the person can personally influence?
Michal Vacek
That's right. Of course, the person must also be rewarded and paid very well, that is a condition of this reward system. Unfortunately, what we see, especially with sales representatives, is that they earn a certain amount and stop having the incentive to earn even more. I understand they have a personal life, but there's automation and other things at hand that can save a lot of time, including our service. A small percentage are motivated to earn more. I also meet motivated younger people, but they are very unreliable and we don't know what they can do, so we tend to use people who have experience.
Martin Hurych
The level of detail is probably up to you, so as not to completely out-kitchen the competition, but I'll still nitpick the rewarding part. So how is it in your case, if I were to come to you as an assistant? What would I expect, what would you measure me on?
Michal Vacek
Above all, the quality of communication is the key. It's measured poorly, which is why the fallout from our department's HR recruitment is huge. You reach out to 300 people and you pick 2 or 3 of them to go through at the end. That's the most expensive cost to our company, finding those people. So we're going to measure it on the quality of the call, the quality of the speech, the quality of the communication, and also making sure that you understand that it's not paid for appointments here, it's paid for something else entirely. We're trying to explain to these people that this is meaningful, that's the key to this communication. If those people understand that, they'll try it with us and they'll see very quickly that it works great. At that point, they're an employee of that company and we become part of that company and its sales.
Martin Hurych
So you get access to all the databases, CRM and you can see in your own system the number of appointments and so on?
Michal Vacek
Yes, we transmit these in several ways at once, with the added benefit that we can also connect to have the data transmitted directly to the CRM.
How long is the cooperation with the communication agency?
Martin Hurych
What is the typical length of cooperation with a client? At what point does it start to make sense? I assume that because you are working very tightly together, a couple of weeks doesn't make sense and we are probably talking about a long-term cooperation.
Michal Vacek
We start with each client what we call a test campaign, where we basically find out the outlet from that product and in that test campaign we do our best to find out and create the best possible result. Those results are clearly there, there's no question. Based on that, the client then sees what it has brought him, what the quality of those leads is and the reality is that 98% of our clients repeat campaigns. Repeat campaigns are up to the sales reps' time. They then choose that for themselves.
What is START1000?
Martin Hurych
Listeners wouldn't forgive me if I didn't ask you about the trick, START1000 B2B leads. Tell me what you actually wear on your chest.
Michal Vacek
We live for it, everybody in our company has that T-shirt. START1000 was originally a strong working name. The gist of it was that if we reach 1,000 target companies, or potential customers, for a given company, we can be said to be able to pitch B2B business and sales to that company at a level that will make them strong in the marketplace. I stand by that.
Martin Hurych
It seems to me that lead generation is slowly becoming another business purely for B2B lead generation.
Michal Vacek
Of course, there are many different automated machines, but you have to remember that these are automated machines, these are online, this is inaccurate information and there is no direct communication with the client. We're able to actually give that client information in that call that they wouldn't get online. That's the first thing. The second thing is that we are able to find out the potential of that client in that call, which no online will do for you. The big problem that companies have is that they have a lot of enquiries from online marketing and social media for example, but then when they run it for a longer period of time they find that there are very few actual enquiries. It takes them a huge amount of time, which is money to deal with communications and so on. So I call it a lot of inquirers, but no business, which our service almost completely eliminates and really only passes on verified clients.
What are the key points of effective direct marketing?
Martin Hurych
Let's summarize everything in a few points, which we will then put in the bonus, which we discussed together before filming. Let's talk about what the basics of direct marketing should look like, what I should start with and where I should ideally end up if I don't want to work with a communications agency.
Michal Vacek
It's a lot first and foremost about the resources, what target audience you're going to call and the quality of that data, like the appeal of the phones and other things. The other thing is to create content marketing for that product and that service so that the other side understands it and create a call script. The next problem is you have to find a person who knows how to communicate that. Companies sometimes solve this by even trying some outsourced person that they hire to do it, but without experience you are not able to teach them or select them. The other thing is that you have to have a total controlling system so that you don't destroy your contacts. Then there has to be some sort of lead management system to give and the life cycle of that communication through to the end. Companies do this of course in Excel and other things, I don't envy them if sales reps are forced to do it. Then
of course, they have to be able to communicate at all and be able to make phone calls. There is a barrier of sales reps, they don't want to make phone calls and go to work and say they have to make 50, 100 phone calls today is not a positive for them. They'd rather send an email. Today, it's generally a world of online, automation and simple processes, so we're used to shopping on e-stores, not even going to the grocery store for groceries anymore, having it brought to our home, and so on. This is also reflected in the communication and behaviour of sales reps. Sales reps have a huge barrier to talking on the phone. We're trying to address that, motivate those people and teach them. There are also very good sales reps who know how to do it, why to do it that way, and why to make personal relationships. But a lot of times you ask a salesperson what they did today and they'll tell you they sent 120 emails and made 5 phone calls. It's supposed to be quite the opposite. He's supposed to make 30, 50 calls a day. You can't sell anything by email, email has a huge disadvantage in that when you send that information, the person reads it, draws some conclusion from that email and you never break it down again. He's going to draw that conclusion and even make a decision, which we don't want. Those are the disadvantages of online. That's why I want to emphasize here that we start from that higher level of communication, which is a phone call, it's verbal communication. We try to explain to companies and sales reps not to be lazy and go to face-to-face meetings and form personal relationships. To me, that's what we do and what's important in business. It worked historically centuries ago and I think we should go back to that.
Martin Hurych
Does this mean that even a video meeting doesn't outweigh an in-person visit?
Michal Vacek
Of course, we also do online meetings. They have the advantage that you can present certain materials and things there that you can't do later when you come live to a client and you don't have projectors ready. That's where it has an advantage. It also has the advantage that you can invite more people from the company, which is also positive. However, even after the online meeting, you need to make an immediate face-to-face relationship and in-person meetings. The sales rep has to negotiate that and has to keep moving that deal further and further along in the life cycle to the order. Alternatively, our assistant will help him in this by keeping an eye on him and planning the next steps.
Martin Hurych
Now we're in the thick of it. At Michael's, you're buying your own boss.
Michal Vacek
That's a lot of hyperbole, but so be it. But we are able to take on virtually the entire acquisition and actually help those clients, which is our goal. It's also including sales. We have customers who want to do completely sales. We don't ask them to do anything else, just a sales rep, and we already manage the sales rep, we already work with the sales rep.
Martin Hurych
In addition to your own boss, you can outsource your own sales to Michal. Michal, it was great talking to you. Thank you very much for your participation and I wish you the best.
Michal Vacek
Thank you too.
Martin Hurych
That was Michal Vacek from Czech Marketing, today about telephoning, the scourge of marketers. I'll be glad if you pick up the phone and try to call someone after you've finished listening to this podcast, it's often refreshing. If that happens, Michael and I have done our job brilliantly.
We'll ask for likes wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast app or YouTube. I've said a few times here that you should check out my website in the Ignition section, where there's a bonus under this episode that Michal mentioned here. I have no choice but to wish you success and keep my fingers crossed, thanks.