From the fish jar, a blue box!
This too may be the result of a child's game of silent mail. But played at an adult teambuilding event. Yeah, even such pearls can be created after information transfer and (mis)communication between adults. You're thinking... Funny, right?
But what if this is exactly the kind of (mis)communication that has spread throughout your company? Especially among people who don't even have a work email? Then how do you fight the rumor and explain that Franta really didn't want the blue box?
I talked to Mark Ander and Veronika Kynčlova from Jobka Services about this and more. Why? Because they're always at it. And it seems they might have a solution. So what did we discuss?
🔸 What is specific to communication in manufacturing companies?
🔸 What are the pitfalls of direct communication?
🔸 How to address employee resistance to change implementation?
🔸 How to break into the business through the HR department?
🔸 Where do we stand in terms of digitalisation within Europe?
TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW
Martin Hurych
Hello. I'm Martin Hurych and this is Zahžeh. I would like to dedicate this episode to communication within the company after a long time. Since we've been covering office-based professions for a long time, today we're going to take a look instead at companies where we have a bunch of people either in production or somewhere in the field. These are people who don't have email and don't have that big badge in front of them that you might be looking at right now. Speaking of communication, I've got two guests who are going to be outnumbered today, Mark Ander, hello.
Marek Ander
Hello.
Martin Hurych
Marek is CEO of JOBKA services. Next, I invited his right hand, as far as business is concerned, Veronika Kynčlova. Hello.
Veronika Kynčlová
Have a nice day.
Is Marek playing on his people's nerves?
Martin Hurych
Veronika is a sales lead in the same company. Before we start, Marek ratted on himself, Veronica, for being a musician, so I was wondering if he ever gets on your nerves.
Veronika Kynčlová
That's a very nice question to start with. Marek is a great musician and I honestly have nothing to do with music, but JOBKA gets on my nerves sometimes. It's not always downright Marek, that's why I said JOBka completely, because there are other departments that can be said to play on my nerves more.
Martin Hurych
It's such an orchestra in playing on your nerves. Back to the music, what do you play, Mark?
Marek Ander
I play funk, which is kind of a challenge music to play and I like a challenge. We're doing a J.A.R. revival at the moment, so I'm the second Roman Holý. I have a pseudonym, Roman of the Fields.
How did Marek and Veronika get into JobkaServices?
Martin Hurych
Let's get to why you're here. Let's briefly introduce your journey from the beginning to JOBKA and briefly JOBKA and what led you to start this company in the first place.
Marek Ander
I was led to this by my experience in my former job as an IT manager and I was given the task in a company where there were a lot of employees on the hall and in the field to come up with something to inform people. The director's initial idea was to sound the halls because he knew I was a musician. We tried this solution but it didn't work, so I came up with a mobile app. So it was created in a hands-on environment, in the environment we deliver the app to today.
Martin Hurych
Does this mean that the headmaster was a devotee of the community school, where they shouted into the microphone and on the school radio, but didn't get the idea of the app?
Marek Ander
He understood it, he supported it, but the company didn't want to invest the money in developing an app that was just for them, which was my opportunity. I took it and developed it as my own project, which I then subsequently sold there.
Martin Hurych
How did you get to JOBC?
Veronika Kynčlová
I basically started my career in a large multinational company that dealt with external recruitment. Then I moved to a smaller Czech company in internal HR and practically all the time I was interested in company culture, what influences it, how it can be created and improved. Then one fine day I saw Mark's advert on LinkedIn saying that they were looking for someone for a slightly different position than the one I am in today. I had started at JOB as a human resources person,
who takes care of customers, solves implementation and the general process of introducing the application into the company. I gradually moved up to my current position.
What is specific to communication in manufacturing companies and how to deal with?
Martin Hurych
I said it would be about communication today, and I have no doubt you will tell me a bunch of other things. Why did I invite you, my bubble and especially the more productive part of it has trouble getting any idea from management to the last person. We talk a lot about the role of the masters, middle management and how the information is altered before it gets to the recipient. You're doing something about it. What exactly are you doing about it? How are you shortening this cycle or this cord?
Marek Ander
We can confirm this, this is practically something we see in all the companies we meet, this is the principle of silent mail. We've also had a survey in the form of a game where people were passing on some information. At the beginning they had, for example, a pickle jar, they had to draw that, then describe it, then draw another one and it became a blue box. Really, the practice of having the information reach a completely different person is valid. That's actually one of the basic principles that we do, to get that information from point A to point B, typically from management down to the grassroots, so that it reaches in a timely manner, at any time, and most importantly in an unbiased form.
Martin Hurych
My bubble is very much office based and pretty much can't imagine life without email, Slack, or something like that. The problem in communicating with people on the shop floor, when we're talking about production, is compounded by the fact that they often have nothing but their own cell phone. So how, if I don't have email, how do I quickly deliver a message to something that the company doesn't actually own?
Marek Ander
That's actually our principle. We have a mobile app that employees like to install on their personal mobile phone. We already have such know-how that people actually like to do that because they have things that are useful to them there, so they don't have to go to a bulletin board somewhere, print something out. Everything they need to do in the company is in their pocket.
Martin Hurych
Sticking with the communication, how are the intermediate links taking it? Suddenly it's a bit evocative, if they're needed at all.
Veronika Kynčlová
I think that, on the contrary, the intermediaries often call for this new form of communication and welcome it because it makes their lives easier. At the same time, what has not yet been mentioned, and from my point of view is very important, is that not only do you get the information from the management in a calm way in the field, but at the same time the employees have the opportunity to express themselves. Often they bring great ideas and the company saves money, shortens various processes, often improves them, and there is of course a huge amount of potential in that direction that can then be exploited. So that two-way communication is also very important.
What are the pitfalls of direct communication?
Martin Hurych
Now I'm gonna be a little devil's advocate. Sometimes that deliberately slightly edited silent mail is the only chance you have to get those people where you need them to go. Several times in my career I have witnessed a complete misunderstanding of what management puts into a company and translating it into the language of the tribe that is supposed to receive it has been indispensable. So does it ever happen to you that when you have that power to send a message to many thousands of people in production that it can very quickly turn against you as management? In the tonality of language, in the momentary annoyance, the silent mail is often invaluable because it will dampen it down. The experience of middle management is often that between two millstones, one pushes and in order for the person in question to shape those people in some human way, they only let in what is desperately needed. So I wonder if the transfer is too hasty.
Veronika Kynčlová
I know where you're going. At the same time, I would venture to say that our clients genuinely want to communicate with their employees, and that's why they are bringing such new technologies into those businesses. At the same time, they are in the same boat. I'm sure there are differences sometimes, of course, in vision and maybe in how to implement that vision, but there is really more of a mood of everybody pulling together and knowing where they are going.
What does a typical manufacturing company look like in terms of communication?
Martin Hurych
Let's describe the situation so that your potential future clients can get to know what the company looks like before you arrive. What are some of the typical things that you might be solving or that you can help with? So what do you see when you come to them?
Marek Ander
I can say this from the experience of the first company I started with and the first few companies where I did business all by myself in the beginning. Most of the time, it's that people don't have an overview of what's going on, they don't have an overview of when decisions fall and why they fall. They don't have much of a say, quite often there can be good ideas to a statement, or conversely dissatisfaction that if exposed early on you don't have to let those people go. Quite often these companies seem to have paper processes, papers circulating, leave requests or machine repair tickets and these get lost in various ways. There tend to be different idea boxes or trust boxes that we then replace with a digital app.
Veronika Kynčlová
I am sure that there is often transcription of various information into the system, scanning, sending to some other workplace or branch, or then to outsiders, for example to accounting offices. In practice, it is all unnecessarily complicated and laborious. We can certainly make these daily routines easier.
Martin Hurych
At the same time, Veronika, I understood from you that there is a need for a certain amount of trust and a taste for transparency.
Veronika Kynčlová
I'm sure it is. At the same time, if you give those employees the opportunity to express themselves, you just find out about their dissatisfaction and you can discuss it with them and elaborate on what the problems really are and talk about it with them. I don't see any other way to get to that point, I guess, if there is already a problem. Of course, then it's about the work of that management.
How to address employee resistance to Jobka implementation?
Martin Hurych
There was one other thing that surprised me at the beginning. When you have the equipment, typically in those office jobs, you can tell those people what to install or not to install. Here I understood that you're going to go to a device that's mine, and very likely in the beginning in some implementation you're going to have to deal with resistance from those people. How do you go against that, for example, how do you address that?
Marek Ander
It's true. There I must say that today, in the three years that we have implemented over 150 companies, we are good at it, we have a department for it. It's really about being able to mix the app for that employee so that they can find those things for them, so that they can see that without it, it's going to be harder for them to live in that company. It's definitely about persuasion, it's about motivation, but today I think we're pretty good at it. There are also companies where you really need a HR lady who has balls, and if the employee doesn't want to install it, they'll have a problem. But when there are two or three thousand people in a company, you can't do it that way and you have to set it up well. You can do it cleverly and create an alternative, but it will be significantly harder. You can make that employee go to the eighth floor of the office building to get that paycheck, or they can get it on their cell phone. He will then gradually change his mind.
Martin Hurych
That's good, you've taken the question off my tongue if it's not actually duplication, because at the point where I have to have an alternative, I have to keep a lot of things alive for two or three people in the company all the time. Is that, am I understanding correctly, or are you really getting 100% conversion? For example, I'm imagining now during a job interview, you're telling me to get my phone out and put this in.
Veronika Kynčlová
Some of our clients do. However, it's not as bad as it may seem now. Of course, we still have some alternatives to cover the residual amount of people who don't have a smartphone, which can happen, or are really die-hard naysayers, we can deal with that. We're putting robust devices in companies that can read a chip reader, or cards that come into my office and chip in, register check- ins and check-outs. We're able to order them right into the app that way. I would add that for me, communication is extremely important. In general, when the company wants to implement something like this, it is good to introduce the employees and give them the opportunity to express what they would like to have in the application. At the same time, of course, the company has to communicate it well and let them know that something like this is happening and coming. If these criteria are met, then we find that we get really positive feedback from management and employees in the vast majority.
How frequent is the feedback from employees in Jobka?
Martin Hurych
While we obviously can't be specific, you can at least see into some statistics. That tin box somewhere by the coffee machine is always wanted, but hardly anyone writes in it. How about you?
Marek Ander
It's true. We often get complaints from companies that they don't write in those metal boxes, because if you take your complaint there and you go in front of that open office or those glass offices, of course everybody sees it, it's terribly anonymous, not to mention the ergonomics. We have these statistics and we do that quite often, we measure before and after. We want the issue we're dealing with there to work. Here, it's clear to say that the use of that particular feature hardware-wise, or even from home, from the couch, when I just feel like I have an idea, I get out of the shower, that success rate is much higher there. It's company by company of course and also the stage of the company when it's starting or already established, so it's hard to say any numbers right now, but there's a significant increase in those contributions.
Veronika Kynčlová
There's a significant increase in submissions as well, because if you're going to throw a paper letter in a box, you're probably going to have a hard time getting feedback on your idea, complaint, or whatever you're writing there. We allow that in the form of a reply to that post.
Martin Hurych
Do you have any feedback if these are really tweaks or am I just plain wrong and I'm just gonna sleep it off on everybody?
Marek Ander
There are different solutions. We also call the modules that it is a trust box or a good ideas box and then what is on the topic is in that particular box. Of course, sometimes there are people who take advantage of that. But what's very important, they when people in the company see that something is happening with those posts, which is no longer about the app, but about the process in the company, it works terribly. That then feeds back to us if it works through us, so people see that they've got a new smoking gun and therefore they'll keep posting because they can see that it's actually working.
Does Jobka cover administrative staff as well?
Martin Hurych
Now I may have a question stemming from ignorance. When I have a combo of white and blue collar, do you only exist on mobile, or as a white collar can I have it in front of me on a big badge?
Veronika Kynčlová
The white collar industry has basically driven us to a situation where it's not just a mobile app anymore, but we have a web app as well. We have a beta version today that is being tested by a smaller number of our clients, which from my perspective we've been driven to.
Marek Ander
But we're still going with a mobile first strategy, front-end development always goes there because the target audience is still really blue collar or companies that have people in the field because that's where it's the hardest to connect with those people and somehow digitize those processes. The people who are at the computer, that's where it's usually already sorted out. But of course they are also joining in and they don't want to tap it on their mobile phones, so as Veronika said, they just pushed us there.
What does the typical clientele look like?
Martin Hurych
Come tell me what a typical clientele looks like and what size it starts to pay off at, because my group is smaller and medium-sized companies.
Veronika Kynčlová
I wouldn't want to limit myself to any areas of what these companies are dealing with or the number of employees, but if we want to generalize a little bit about our target, it's companies from about 100 employees and up. The bigger the company, the more likely there is to be a return. In general, the case studies that we do in companies can be built on different areas of what they're looking to improve, digitize, automate. As far as the areas are concerned, it's not at all about what the target product is or what the company does and what it does. It's different companies, so it's not really all sitting in one office, it's employees in different places.
What is a "The company in Your Pocket"?
Martin Hurych
I saw a claim on your site called The Company in Your Pocket. That kind of evokes to me that since WhatsApp and Slack have been mentioned here, that it's not just a replacement for those apps, but that there's a lot more to it. What else can we address in those processes with you?
Marek Ander
Every JOB is different. We have produced over 150 of them today, we have about 90 thousand employees and each one is different. But to put it in perspective, a person can order lunch, request a vacation, read the company news, make a suggestion, find a colleague to carpool with to save money. There are also companies that have shuttle buses, so you can order a ticket through that. Whatever's going on in that company process-wise, I can have a capsule handy. It started with communication, of course, but it immediately started to pile up, with more requests from the first customer. As soon as he got it out to the people, the requests started coming in as to what else could be addressed, and that's actually still a development overload today, we're judiciously taking on those requests, but I think we've got work for 20 years ahead.
Martin Hurych
Version 4.0 is out now. What will be in version 5.0?
Marek Ander
That's a bit of a punchline, Verča is looking at me expectantly. The CTO is not with us today, but we have a roadmap for the next version and then the future, so we don't have 5.0. It's coming naturally though, as the clientele changes and client requirements change over time and with the problems that come along. If we had 5.0 now, given that we have one release per quarter, it would come out in early 2024 and that situation could look very different.
How much are customer requirements imprinted in the development plans?
Martin Hurych
Before we go to Veronica and the store, I have one last question, a little unprepared. People who have a product, I struggle a lot with how much the roadmap is set in stone, how much it imprints you and your appetite to develop that app where you want it to go. Legislative
We'll leave the requirements to the side for now, because those are uninfluential. How much do you put into what the customers want? How customer-centric are you in this, how much do you let yourself be swayed?
Marek Ander
This is evolving for us, but I have to say that over the last couple of months we've gotten to the point where we're evaluating whether those requests are consistent with our vision and whether they're coming from multiple companies at the same time. Then we prioritize them, and if it's maybe an individual idea but it fits in, we include it. We also have a digression of some customer development in there if the customer really needs it but it doesn't fit the concept, but it doesn't derail our core. The architecture is so fancy that if clients have existing systems today, we don't push them out. We are not pushing there at the expense of them ending their cooperation with other systems, we are connecting them.
Martin Hurych
Now, I have this mean question, but the question of carving out a roadmap seems to me to be just a matter of counter-offer, how much the party in question will offer for custom development. So do you have some sort of split that there are only people who do custom development and a core team that only does JOBK, or do you have to juggle balloons on a monthly, quarterly basis to determine who goes into development? Do you have open spots in that roadmap where you put those custom requests?
Marek Ander
It's a fact that in the beginning we were purely a startup and it was a lot about finances, so the decision-making was very biased by that. You pretty much went off strategy because there was a bunch of money behind it for custom development. Nowadays, you can really say that we overwhelmingly go by the idea that we're not influenced by money, but we're influenced by making sure that it fits the concept, that when we produce it, it's conceptual and it helps the other 149 customers. When we incorporate it, we want it to make a difference.
How is business done in Jobca?
Martin Hurych
I love how you say you're making an app. Most people always say they're programming. Veronica, am I correct in understanding that even from your profile, or from the profile of other salesmen, saleswomen, you are focusing on the other side of the HR department?
Veronika Kynčlová
It used to be. I have to say that this has certainly changed rapidly in the last year, because companies are now increasingly going digital to our delight. They are literally building new roles into the corporate structure and filling the roles of people who are just doing digital. In that case, we are no longer typically going to HR, we are often dealing with communication problems even with production managers or with internal communication as such, often with marketing. So that's not quite the case today.
Martin Hurych
Who is the final decider or the prime mover?
Veronika Kynčlová
Typically, the company's executives and, of course, whoever pays for the app. Usually we deal with several people there, because the head of the HR department covers some of his needs, the IT team leader covers some other needs, and the application can deal with virtually any department. It spans the whole company, so there are definitely multiple people we're dealing with. We then work with them to address some use times, payback, then we go to the board of directors or just the CEO of the company, we present the solution, how the application will make their life easier, what it will bring them and also what it will return to them.
Martin Hurych
You have a great reference, which is Bosch Jihlava. It stuck in my mind because I worked for many years in Humpolec nearby and many of my relatives worked in Bosch. But I also name them for another reason. Does it really always end up with the CEO even in these big companies?
Veronika Kynčlová
Yes, even in the big companies it ends up with the CEO. There, of course, it is crucial whether the CEO has a mindset that wants to move forward, that wants to move the company forward and move with the times. If he does, it's relatively easy.
How to break into the company through the HR department?
Martin Hurych
You said you started out selling through HR. Let's do a favor here for a bunch of people who want to sell through HR and aren't very good at it. Unfortunately, HR is not the strongest department in the company. We used to argue in corporate about whether the head of HR or the CFO was more important. In the end it was completely obvious, but the theoretical debate was interesting. So what to do and what to focus on to break through HR into the company?
Veronika Kynčlová
My experience is with both internal and external HR and we sold through HR. I really like the word kindness that you mentioned, and of course I would like to tip off other salespeople through this as well, that it's really not the best way to go. It's for the reason that you mentioned. It's actually sad from my point of view because HR is a very important department in a company. If you don't have quality people who do their job well, you're probably not going to succeed. That's why it's important to have a CEO and generally some sort of manager, CEO or managing director. These two people should definitely pull together, this then reflects throughout the company. It's not the best way to sell through HR, because often the view of the recruiter is somehow limited. He may not be able to take into account the problems of those other departments, where the finances, the money, for example, are projected. It's definitely a good idea to involve more managers, more leaders in the sales process, and the CFO definitely has a say in it, because he or she has to put the money on the table. To do that at all, you have to involve the whole company comprehensively.
How to reach foreign markets?
Martin Hurych
It almost sounded like I should scratch HR. You guys have even expanded, which is another perpetual theme here at Ignition, how to use what I have beyond the everyday. You're in eight countries. How have you done that and where have you expanded to?
Marek Ander
That's right. We've expanded, now it's eight countries in Europe and we're moving on. But I'm afraid we can't quite figure out how, because it comes naturally to us. We do it from the subsidiaries in the Czech Republic.
into mothers abroad naturally. We don't have a shop there, we trade really from the Czech Republic and it comes naturally to us. So if I had any advice, make the existing Czech companies as happy as possible and then it will go abroad on its own.
Where do we stand in terms of digitalisation within Europe?
Martin Hurych
We talk about digitizing processes with anyone, everyone knows how to do it, everyone does it in some way, but for me it is becoming a dangerous buzz word, even though I personally love digitization and could not live without it myself. However, do you feel that we as a country are ahead of the game in terms of digitalisation within Europe? Is there anything to be proud of?
Marek Ander
I think we definitely have people who are strong idea makers, they're creative, there are good programmers and I think we're definitely ahead of the game in that. Quite often we get requests from other countries, from Poland, from Bulgaria, from Hungary, that they just want this. They want to do a tender, but they don't have anything like that.
Martin Hurych
I have not had a shadow of a doubt that the programmers here are great, that's been known for a long time. I was more concerned about whether those manufacturing companies, which are often part of multinational corporations, are chosen as pilot projects, or whether the people within those companies are the predators who then implement it further, perhaps even in Western Europe. Because we often beat ourselves up here that we are still bad and still a bit Eastern Europe, still an assembly plant, so I am looking for some clues where we can be proud of ourselves. Is that maybe something we could pick up?
Marek Ander
It's probably company by company, but there are companies where topics like happiness management, digitalization, internal communication are serious topics. There are positions popping up, they're hiring people just for the purpose of digitalization or happiness management. It's company by company, there are still ossified companies that are afraid of these words, but there are also very progressive companies, so I think it's moving forward and you can see it.
Veronika Kynčlová
I definitely know at least one of my customers who is in the automotive industry and their big Czech branch has become a leader, where they test a lot of things and introduce a lot of innovations. They're also first in the country in a lot of things, and they've become a model for several other branches in general, not only in Europe but globally in their division.
Martin Hurych
We couldn't have asked for a more positive conclusion. I wish you the best and that JOBbka 5.0 will be here soon. I hope that we may see you here again and that we will hear a lot about you. Thanks a lot.
Marek Ander
We will be happy to come, also thank you for the invitation.
Veronika Kynčlová
Thank you. Have a nice day.
Martin Hurych
You can see that even communication with the shop floor and employees scattered around the city or the country can be communicated meaningfully and quickly. If you found this episode interesting, be sure to like and share wherever you're listening. Also check out my website, www.martinhurych.com/zazeh, which of course has not just this episode, but a bunch of others. I'll just keep my fingers crossed and wish you success, thanks.